Is calling someone on the phone, an act of aggression. There's *** new digital trend that says you should text before you call and that's got people kind of hot. Diane Gottsman is *** modern etiquette expert. And this week on the Dying to podcast, we're talking about when to text when to call, why you should never leave *** voicemail. And we've got *** hack to get *** ghosting teenager to respond to you. I'm Deirdre Fitzpatrick, morning news anchor and host of Dying to ask my guests wrote the book, launched the product one to raise or crap, the ultimate life hack to live bigger by living smarter. This opened up *** door and things will never be the same again. One thing I've learned is that you have to think it before you can do it. Join me for the podcast that pulls back the curtain on the people who turn big dreams into real life success. Isn't that an awesome thing to be able to say about any career. Subscribe to dying to ask wherever you listen to podcasts, Diana. It is so good to see you. I feel like every time I turn open up my Instagram, uh that you are off doing something somewhere talking to this company. Are you just as busy as I think you are? I am busy. I'm very grateful to be busy and it's *** whole new world with the same topic. It's just *** refresher. So, yes, I'm very thankfully busy. What are people bringing you in to talk about it at big companies these days? What are their big, just out of curiosity, what are their biggest issues that they're running into? You know, it's so interesting because even when I go into *** corporate setting, which I'm teaching corporations and universities, um we, we end up talking about social events because corporate and social overlap. So it's uh holiday events or networking events or something about dining. There are *** laura of dining questions and then there is always the dreaded cell phone, you know, we love them and at the same time, we don't know how to really use them properly. Well, and we all, it seems like generationally, we have very different ideas on how to use these things. Like when I was growing up, my parents were such stickler with that one phone that was in the kitchen with the big long cord. If we wanted to call *** friend, my mother would sit there and listen to us as whoever answered the phone on the other end. If it was the parent, it was, hi Mrs Diana Cone. That was my friend's Mom. Uh, this is Deirdre. May I please speak with Jennifer or I'd have to engage her in some conversation. And if I didn't, my mother would grab that phone out of my hand and my phone privileges were cut. Well, times have changed *** little. Yes, they have. That's *** lot of work. That's *** lot of words, trying to make *** connection and get the message across and hang up because we have busy lives. We're working. We um are generally in between meetings. So that's why I think this is, this topic is really useful because we're confused and it does have something to do with different generations. You know, myself, my, my kids, my adult kids already working will be texting, texting, texting me. Well, I might wanna ask them *** question. I call them, they don't answer the phone. What, what is that? You've been texting me now for 20 minutes and you won't pick up the phone? Well, I'll tell you what that is. That is them saying sorry as I interrupt you, which is very rude. I know. Um But that is that is them saying that *** cell phone call or *** phone call in general is seen as aggressive, which is something that my 19 year old told me. And that was when I thought I need to reach out to Diane and find out has *** cell phone call truly become an *** an act of aggression. So in answer to the question, it has to be for *** purpose in this generation. You know, let's say the purpose is to talk to you, but they are texting you and it is *** more efficient message to text. So when it comes to, and I think it's really fascinating because even with clients and, and of all ages before you pick up the phone and call, you want to give them *** quick text if you know them. Well, I'm not saying just some random stranger but for you today, uh you know, we were scheduling something and I said, I'm gonna text you when I'm ready, you know. So we already have *** relationship built over several years. So I could say that to you. I wouldn't say that to someone. I didn't know I would just email, I wouldn't call, I would email and say, you know, and, and give you the message and then you'd respond back to me. So there's levels, I think it comes to levels of comfort when you are using different modes, but I will tell you. So it has changed. But the voicemail is an annoyance to most people and actually it's not generational. It's even to you and I, when it's somebody you really don't want to listen to. Um, and I have some, I have some friends who are, um, 45 and up and they don't, they're offended if I don't leave *** voicemail while I hang up. I will text because they're my friend. But I wouldn't do that if it were *** client and certainly with Gen Zs and the younger generations, they're not listening, they're not listening to those voicemails. But I suggest you if you're gonna call your grandmother or an aunt or an uncle for their birthday, don't hang up. They're waiting for that voicemail message and if it's their birthday, sing them happy birthday because they want to hear your voice, there's no doubt about that. But, but it is funny that like even what you're talking about just generationally and just trying to figure it out, sometimes it just feels so unbelievably inefficient to go back and forth and back and forth and, and things are misunderstood and, and you want, at the, the heart of it, you want your communication with someone to be clear and I find that so difficult now when we're relying on *** cell phone, whether it's, it's the spoken word or written word sometimes to get that through. Well, tone of voice matters and when we're sending *** message, they can't hear our tone of voice. So it may come across as aggressive or assertive, which is fine, assertive is different than aggressive as opposed to being friendly. So when do you use those emojis? You know, so that, that takes us into *** different conversation because we use emoji with your client versus your kid. Um You just so, so if, if I'm saying I need to talk to you. That could be if my boss says I need to talk to you. Oh, my gosh. But if my son says I need to talk to you, that could be, oh, my gosh too. Or because it's your kid, it could be nothing at all. It could be nothing at all. It could be nothing at all. So, I think that we have to put it in perspective. If it's *** really important call, if you, you're not gonna break up with someone, you're not gonna give someone bad news. If even really great news, you want, you want to hear that voice, you might say, I, I need to talk to you. Are you available? And that way it gives them the heads up but voicemails, lengthy, rambling voicemails and then we have the trans, you know, we have that transcribed mode where everything is wrong. So you really don't even know what they're saying because they're the, the, the sir is getting it wrong or I dictate on my phone all the time, which I'm horrible at. So, you know, that is my vice because I look down later and it's all wrong and the words are either uh there was *** completely different word or there's commas where there shouldn't be. So we, you know, you're talking about being efficient and being very clear and that dictation is kind of AAA difficult, difficult, difficult. So voicemails you're saying in general, skip the voicemail. I'm saying there is *** better option than *** voicemail and that would be the text first. Are you available? Jump on *** quick call? They, they have value. So if you are calling *** company and you want them to know why you're calling, leave your first and last name, the time of your call and what you're calling about, but make it short because they're not going to listen to the, they want to hear it and they want to hear it quick, stay with family and friends. So that I think it's *** little bit more clear. It feels *** little bit more clear when you're talking about *** work situation, right? So text. Are you available to do *** quick call? That's *** good way to do it or just send the email? If it's somebody that you don't know too much about and try to set up that time, let's talk about on ***, on *** personal level. Let's just say it's just *** friend or *** family member. You just feel like, you know, you crossed my mind. I wanted to reach out and say hello. Does that now require *** text to see if it's ok to call? No, you can just call, just call and if you miss him, you miss him, you can also text him and say I'm just thinking about you. That's kind of, that feels good. It's like *** little letter, *** little note if you call and you don't leave *** voicemail and you haven't talked to them in *** while. They're going to wonder, you know, this is all about reading the room, knowing the relationship, knowing what they're going to anticipate or expect. But with friends we get very, very comfortable and I have *** good friend, dear friend. And if you don't answer that text, she hammer texts you and will leave multiple texts. And I will say, ok, I am, I am working. So I say, you know, I'm honest enough and we have *** close enough relationship that I say, don't hammer text me. So we have to remember not to hammer text somebody. If they're not responding back, there's *** reason they're not responding back and it might be because they just don't want to talk to you right now. But it's probably because they're in class. They are um in *** meeting, they are and they are not able to chat and that brings something else up. If you are *** parent and you have *** high school kid or *** college age kid and you're texting them, we have to give them some grace. They can't just pick up the phone at any time and text back because that also every time you pick up that phone, that's *** distraction and the professor or the, the teacher is watching. So we can't put them in *** situation where our needs come before theirs unless it's an emergency. Ok. I'm gonna push back *** little bit on that one kindly, of course. Ok. Yeah. Why is it with that alleged or, you know, hypothetical college student when we don't respond to their text that we tend to get the hammer text? Why aren't you listening to me? Where are you? Or, or my favorite? Why? You know, wy, ***, well, you know, it's like it's nonstop with them with them or is that just my house? No, it's my house as well. So it's, it is the relationship, it's *** comfortable relationship. We share with our kids and everybody has different kinds of relationships. But I get what you're saying because, and it, it doesn't, if we text them, we try and understand they text us, we better respond back and respond back quickly. Are they worried about how it feels? Why are we responding back? Now? My son can respond back with one word busy. If I were to respond back with one word busy, he would be so offended because they know personalities. So I, you know, in *** way I'm smiling because I think it's kind of cute because I get it, you know, II I do too. I do too. And one of my kids has said I just expect more of you. That's all I'm like, what? I don't even understand what's happening right now. It's like *** Jedi mind trick. Um What about if you have *** friend and I have *** friend like this who just hates talking on the phone but will text with you all day long and the conversation is on text personally. I hate that because there's *** point where you're like, someone's got to end this. You gotta go do things, the phone, it could be the, the conversation could be half the time if you picked up the phone. So if you have *** friend or *** client and this has gone on and on and on, you can say, listen, do you mind if we just jump on the phone real quick and just figure it out, meaning let's figure out the plans for tonight or let's decide where we're going to have that meeting or where the conference is going to be. So I think that in order to alleviate this long rambling because some people don't mind but others, others do because it ties up their day. But we're responsible for kind of setting the tone as well and setting some boundaries without being rude without, they don't even know they're doing it. Some people like you said, they just don't want to talk, they just want to text but it's *** two way street. So you can say, ok, listen, I and I do this all the time. I gotta run. I'm, I'm getting ready to hop into *** meeting or I'm going to bed. You know, this happens at night with somebody who wants to text, you know, *** friend of mine, *** girlfriend, then she gets her, her second win and wants *** text forever and I'm sleepy. So, ok, on my way, I'm, I'm getting ready to go to sleep. I'll talk to you tomorrow. We just have to kind of guide them. We gently bring them respectfully on *** professional and you're *** really good friend. Yeah. On *** professional exchange. Whether it's on an email or *** text, how many back and forth where one side or the other is just not really getting the point in the conversation before you say, can we hop on *** call? What's, what's your rule of thumb? Three? OK. One conversation, one response, one conversation. That's 3123 if it comes back in. So let's say on the fourth response, you know, back and forth and they're not getting it. We, we, we are having some kind of miscommunication. Let's just hop on *** quick call at your convenience. That's, that's the right there at your convenience. It doesn't have to be this very minute. But when you can chat, I had an experience. Yes. Yeah, I had an experience over the summer. I was setting up an uh an interview with an Olympic team and there was apr person who was in another state and was trying to set things up and ask me very specific questions. And *** lot of times I can't give you specifics on something like that. And this went on for like *** couple of days because of my odd hours and the time difference. And finally, I just said, hey, I think we're talking about two different things. Could we just hop on *** call? And this person responded back with *** bunch of emojis and exclamation points? Yes. Yes, that'd be great. So, we get on the phone and I come to find out that this person was 22 years old and had only been on this job for three months and really didn't know what she was setting up and that I could actually explain it to her more than, you know, in, in her remote job. She, she could, um, kind of understand the nuances of it. And we, so we had this conversation for 10 minutes, got it all figured out. And she sent me the nicest note back saying how it had never occurred to her that *** phone call could be so efficient. And at first I laughed and then I thought, well, that just also tells you that our communication styles are really different and it is worth trying to put yourself in the other person's place and understand. Is it possible that they're saying something completely different or that there's *** better way we could do this and because we just met in *** different place for 10 minutes, everything was great. You know, and I had, I had really thought I was starting to think things about her based on the the constant emails coming back that were completely not true. Right. It's, it, that's exactly, that's exactly the point. You know, we, we tend to judge people. Well, we always judge people based on perceptions and communication and you really did her *** favor and taught her, probably gave her some skills that she hadn't had in the past. And, you know, it sounds like common sense but it, common sense is not always common. So I think it's important to set these, set these guidelines up for yourself and say, look, this is, you know, we say this internally, this is where I'm going. Ok. It's not happening. We've been talking about this for half *** day. I really need to get on the same page with this other person and not everybody communicates the same way. So we also have to watch how the other person communi communicates most efficiently and then try and mirror that because if we want to make *** point with them, we have to speak their language. And um but that's also training on the other side. So if we have *** gen Z person that's coming in and they don't want to talk on the phone at all, but their client does that the the younger generation needs to, needs to make that call. You know, these are new times, but it's still some old rules, meaning respect, courtesy consideration. We're thinking about the other person. I will tell you just last night I got three texts in *** row. My daughter is getting married next month and she's meeting with the wedding planner and she sent us all as *** family, the itinerary by text. So my son and daughter, my other son and daughter loved it. Um her dad and I were trying to look at it with old eyes, trying to figure it out and trying to send it by email and, you know, so I said I can't even, she said it's right there for you. So it's funny. And again, you know, I said, well, I hope you don't do this with your clients. I'm joking with her, but I really mean it. And she said, I don't mom, it's you. So we had to think about she's reading her audience and her mother. So I think the bottom line is we really do read the room. We look at, we think about who we're talking to. We look at the relationship we have with them when we, we try and determine how they're going to best understand our communication and then we, we just follow suit. Isn't it interesting how different generations have different sensibilities to what's rude and what's not rude? So building on what your experience that you were just talking about, my kids will tell me that when I send them, you know, my voice texted paragraph with some spaces in it that it's rude that I should be putting all of those things into like single text, like 15 bullet points which personally I can't stand because then the phone is like Zzzz. I'd rather just give, I'm gonna give you like the word of record. All right here. What's the, what's the rule of thumb on that? You know, when it's, I think the rule of thumb in general is if you have to have bullet points, it's too long period. For all of us, we texts are meant to be short. They're meant to be brief even though we know they're not, they're rambling. They go on and on my paragraph because I like paragraphs. I want, I want to separate my subjects or my topics, but they're really, the reality is they're too long. They're just too long. So people aren't going to read everything, especially if you're dictating and all of the words are wrong in between anyway. Uh You know, so we were trying to be efficient. We are trying to communicate accurately and the bottom line is we need, we need to spend some time making sure that it's clear and quickly understandable for the other person. So again, we get back to read the room, read the, read the room. Who are you talking to? And if I'm talking to one of my kids, they're not gonna read it. So what's the point of drafting that whole, you know, diatribe? I will say I sent you that picture, didn't you see that cute picture? Oh, I, no, I didn't see it well, by text. Well, ok, there's no other way to send that picture. But even, even our kids aren't reading every single thing that we're sending. They don't think that the, the cute dog that I just saw on Instagram is as cute as I think it is, you know, but if ID M on Instagram or if I send *** private message, they're reading it. So, exactly styles. But I wouldn't send my boss, you know, ***, *** picture of, well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't send, let's say my client, I wouldn't send my client *** picture of *** rescue pup unless I knew they loved rescue pups. So again, I would read the sidebar and this is most definitely reading the room. I will and it's only because I know my kids won't listen to this. I will take pictures of the dog doing crazy things or like funny cute pic to get their attention on that text and then I'll put in the, you know, make sure you have your insurance card, whatever it is I need to communicate. Oh, good. Do they read your text? What they do if they see that dog picture pop up? Most definitely. Most definitely. Ok. Well, leave us with just some final takeaways when it comes to this whole is calling somebody an aggressive act and how to be better at communicating with people, whether it's *** text or ac or *** call. Ok. So calling someone in itself is not an aggressive act because it means that you're trying to contact them. So if someone is feeling that it's aggressive, I think that that's their filter. However, calling someone late at night is, is not appropriate. You know, calling during the work day is perfectly fine and leaving *** voicemail on *** work voicemail that's appropriate. If you're calling *** friend and you want to talk to them right? Then you might text them first and ask if they're available. If you're calling. If you're texting your kids don't expect an immediate response back because they are doing what we taught them to do, be responsible and stay focused at work or at school. So the bottom line is that we really are thinking about each individual that we communicate with. Do they want *** voicemail? And you ask them, how do you want me to best communicate with you? Do you want to text, would you like me to email you or should I call you? So when in doubt, always ask because that's the most respectable way to find out. And then we know, and then if you find yourself on one of those group, those texts that just won't end, put the phone down. OK? This is my final thought. I this is so important these threads where someone includes 20 different people on these texts, the bane of my existence, they are responding back, they are answering back, it makes absolutely no sense. And you do not care. Leave the group, leave the group. Do not, do not worry, you'll, you'll do it once and they'll figure it out. I have been banned from several group texts because of it within, in my family. And I don't care, I don't care. I thank them for it. Well, I'll give you one other little hack that I don't know why I didn't know this because somebody just showed me just recently you can just silence those. So if you wanted to go back and you wanted to read the 500 texts that have come in since the last time you looked, you actually could catch up on the conversation and seem like you were engaged the entire time. Oh, I probably don't care. You probably still don't care. Oh my gosh, we can always learn. We are always learning and it's now the voicemail, the new voicemail, you can pick up the phone and it's, it says it's leaving *** message and it's transcribing and you can still pick up the phone and answer and all of that goes away because now you're on the phone. And so some people will say, well, they were, they were checking to see who it was and what I wanted first. Maybe, but maybe they just got to their phone light. So I think that we don't automatically go on the defensive. We just, someone's trying to reach out to us do you know what I was just thinking about when we were kids and the phone rang and there was this moment of excitement with, I wonder who it is and it was exciting and kind of fun and you had no way of knowing and no matter who is on the other line, you had to deal with it instantly. I kind of miss it. Sometimes we do this. We just go. Oh, no, not doing that one right now. I don't know. I don't know if I, if I hit the red button, hang up when it's ringing, if they know because some people will say, namely my husband. Well, you just click me off. Well, I did because I'm in the middle of something, but I don't know if that always works. Do you know? Um, I don't know. I mean, the new feature that they've got on iphones is where somebody is starting to leave *** message and then you can interrupt their message and go ahead and answer it if you decide to. That's, oh, that's what you're talking about. Um, no, I don't think they do then I don't think they do know and I see that little green or red and I hit red. That means I'm hanging up on that person to stop ringing. I think it automatically goes to voicemail. I think I'm not sure here's the deal. I will pick up the phone any time you call or text and I will promise you that right now the and I'll do it ok. In the meantime, I will be picking up that phone to check out your Instagram because you have so many fun tips and especially with the holidays and stuff coming up. I know people are always getting themselves into *** jam and you're so good about helping people smooth their way out of it. Is Instagram the best place for people to find you. And what is your handle there if they'd like to follow dotman on Instagram Protocol School of Texas on Facebook. And I really do see them and, and I get such wonderful questions and comments and it will kind of give you just *** little snippet of, of all of the awkward moments we have in life. And you know, I've got *** couple of rescue puppies that are over here right now by my feet that I adore you to meet them as well. So, you know, I think that it's important to, like you said, you, you send the dog picture first and then the message. Well, that's getting their attention. And I think that with any communication, it's about getting this person's attention without alarming them or offending them. And hopefully if you go to my Instagram page and I know you and I do already, but you know it, they give you, I give you great tips and you'll also get to meet Wilson, my multi poo. All right. Well, Diane. Thank you so much. And I guess my uh three word takeaway is Read the room. Thanks for listening. You'll find even more episodes of Dying to ask on Apple, Spotify and Podbeam. Take us on the go and don't forget to leave us *** rating or review and please share the show.